Curse

Abedeus · Feb 15, 2008, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Nobody was forced to use Obsi Flesh. That's just mentality of PuG's that ,,tank zomg wtf cool I can tank 50 monsters and waste an hour''. There were DB/MS Assassins or DS/SY Warrior.

Obsi could be a warrior, an elementalist, a dervish, a ranger, paragons can turn people into tanks with Imbagon build. Ursan is ,,all classes'', but only one true class IRL ,,GRINDER''.

And I don't want to use Ursan. I want to go to PuGs. I can't, as searching for a non-ursan team would take at least 5-6 hours.

I say I want to use nuker, not ursan. What's happening? They kick me. And another group kicks, another, another. I agree to play Ursan and I'm bored for next hour-two.

Oh, and aren't you forgetting about past nerfs?
,,Let people use unnerfed EoE, if they are having fun, let them use it!!''
,,If people are having fun with Signet of Ghostly Might, let them use it!''
,,Some people like playing Obsidian Flesh with Stoneflesh at 21 seconds, don't nerf it and let them play!''
,,Me and my friends like 600 unnerfed, make it come back!''

You are incredibly, incredibly selfish. Everything is good, as long as it makes you pass game incredibly fast and with nothing to gain except for gold. No experience, no skill.

lyra_song · Feb 15, 2008, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

It's an utopian thought to think bad players will eventually get better. The reality is that most bad players will stay bad, so it's better to give them a tool so that they are atleast somewhat usefull to good players than completely wasting the good player's time by using some horrible build.

No i dont think bad players will get better since I'm a pessimist. I have ideal thoughts, but my expectations are much lower.

To be honest, bad players have their place in the game. They just shouldn't be able to do the same things that good players can do without stepping up to the same level as good players.

Ursan doesnt make them "useful" to good players, since with Ursan good and bad players have close to equal performance. The better player cannot excel since the skillbar requires no skill.

Instead of a "you must be this tall to ride" (a certain level of gameplay skill/knowledge), we change it to "you must be below 7 foot tall to ride".

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An important question I'd still like to see answered by the people who want UB to be nerfed is: Why do you care about UB so much? Since it hardly affects your game play?

Ursan affects me because it seriously screws up existing gameplay dynamics and breaks apart many many many conventions of what Guild Wars was designed to do.

And I care about the game. I want Guild Wars to stay a good game.

I protest and despise Ursan because its a BAD gameplay change decision.

It affects my gameplay because its in MY GAME.

Example:
-Theres an in game exploit.
-Lots of people use the exploit.
-I dont like exploits. I dont use the exploit.
-Do you expect me to IGNORE the exploit even if I dont use it?
-I think the game maker should remove the exploit because good games shouldnt be exploitable.
-You expect me to turn away and let you exploit because you are having your fun and "not hurting anyone" ?

Ursan is an exploit.

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Yes, there is slight (I say slight because there is always a cookie cutter build for every area, so prices for items will always go down for every item found in area over time, as well as the fact that a large amount of people have just changed from cookie cutter build A to cookie cutter build B and hence do not impact the economy much more than they did before) economic impact because it's slightly faster, but not too big of an impact (i.e. duping item's and the Mallyx outpost if left unchecked). As well as the fact that there are many other builds played along side Ursanway.

Nothing is wrong with a cookie cutter build in a basic sense. Cookie cutter builds exist because its been vetted and proven and well known.

Now...when a cookie cutter build becomes so popular that the gaming community begins to think of it as the ONLY build that can be used, then something is going wrong.

Thats when someone has to step in.

To me, the economic impact of Ursan is negligable, I REALLY DONT CARE about the economic impact.

HOWEVER. To those using Ursan to farm, the impact is quite obvious. Ursan farmers have told me of how armbrace prices have dropped dramatically, and how Ursan farming is becoming...pointless, since just about anyone can Ursan farm, armbraces can be easily obtained and have loss any value worth using Ursan to begin with.

Items will decrease in value over time, but this drop in price for DOA items is a rollercoaster thats not coming back up.

Ursan is so good, its essentially making itself useless because of overfarming.

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If people want to take the easy way of doing something why shouldn't they be able to?

Normal mode has normal rewards.
Hard mode has better rewards.

Effort should equal the reward.

Ursan requires very little effort and shouldn't be getting rewarded the same as normal builds.

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People generally don't use 8 man teams to get ectos either they usually use a solo/duo build because it's easier shouldn't they nerf those builds as well then?

Lets take ecto farming specifically.

-What else can a ecto farming solo/duo do in the game?
-What are the weaknesses of an ecto farming solo/duo build?
-Are there alternative ecto farming solo/duo builds?
-What is the margin of error in these builds?

How can you even compare it to other existing farming builds? They are good but have glaring weaknesses.

Every effect must match its cost.
Good effect must cost a decent amount
Minimal effect should cost very little.
Awesome effects should cost a lot.

Elite skills are good skills, but they are limited to one skill.
Ursan is 1 elite skill thats really 3 VERY GOOD elite skills in one.

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And why oh why should everyone live up to the standards you set for yourself? Why aren't they allowed to make their own standards? It's a game afterall and people should be allowed to have fun anyway they want as long as it doesn't negatively impact the other players.

Ursan affects ALL players because it exists IN THE GAME.

Wether you choose to ignore it, or choose to embrace it, it affects you.

IMO, it affects the game only negatively.

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Even if that means using a skill that requires less skill than other builds. If you really have a need to feel better than everyone else play PvP where you actually get titles because of your skill. None of the PvE titles make me think that person has much skill since there are a lot of easy ways of getting titles like vanquishing, survivor, ...

Since when was titles relevant, except in discussing how Ursan gains its attributes in the grindiest way possible?

Dark Kal · Feb 15, 2008, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

I think I posted somewhere a screen where 96% of pugs were about ursan, 4% were in other builds.

You "think" you posted a screen "somewhere", kinda vague don't you think? I hope you don't mind I don't believe your compelling evidence but even if it is true one single event doesn't prove anything.

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They can't do whole Urgoz/FoW/UW/DoA/Deep without changing a skill.

You're forgetting that's just 2/8 of the entire group I could bring more 600hps if I wanted to or other support characters since 2 Ursans won't clear anything either.

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What? GW WAS NEVER SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT GRIND! It was supposed to be skill > time, no? It was. Thanks to GWN and then GWEN and pve-only skills it's time > skill. Even UBers say so.

Where on the Guild Wars site does it say that? Where does a Guild Wars representative say that?

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It requires NO skill. Even an ape can mash 1-2-3 (and maybe 4 if he misses in frenzy), press C and hit space with palm.

It does require skill, you can die with UB, saying otherwise only proves how little you know about the subject. Does it require less skill than other builds? Sure.

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Vanquishing with 3x hench + w/mo is NOT possible, even if you have 10 hours.

Funny you should mention that I vanquished 'Old Ascalon' as a W/Mo (as you might have seen on my picture it's my primairy character) with 3 henchmen (not even heroes since I didn't have any back then) it was hard but it did do it, believe me or not.

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And you are forgetting that this is an MMORPG. Ever played a private server of any game? Donation items can ruin the game. What's the difference between Ursan ($40 for a game, where one of the attractions is UB) and donation item, giving you 30 times more damage than the best weapon in game for non-donators.

GW:EN offers much more than just 1 skill therefor your "theory" is wrong.

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Everything you do is affecting people you may not know. When you spend 50k on new weapon, someone else is spending that cash on items. People buy those items and get money. It's like a huge ecosystem - one piece is broken and everything will start to suffer.

It only affects the global economy in a slight manner and not in a way that you portray it. And why should only a few lucky people with the right class be able to benefit from these elite areas instead of all classes anyway?

trobinson97 · Feb 15, 2008, 02:31 PM // 14:31

No need for me to parrot Dark Kal and Crom. Good stuff fellas.

Bryant Again · Feb 15, 2008, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

It's imbalanced because the majority off players can find very few other builds other than the cookie cutter builds to do DoA. It's certainly possible to do DoA with other builds as well but you would need to be lucky enough to be in a skilled enough guild or have enough skilled friends. That would probably leave at least 75% of the other people out. The game shouldn't just be about luck either.

You and your friends aren't able to succeed in DoA because of luck, but because of skill (as Abdeus posted.) And if you and your friend are skilled enough then you need only 2 people and 6 heroes, it's very possible to beat DoA with heroes.

PUGs couldn't do well in DoA because they are PUGs. They are inexperienced in the game and cannot complete the harder areas of the game, as it should be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

There are several builds out there I can't use because I haven't bothered pushing all my characters through Nightfall so this statement is blatantly false (i.e. I can't be a permanent Shadow Form A/Me because I don't have the skill that makes assassin skills recharge faster and there is NO alternative for it).

"Alternative" in the form of having a different build but still being effective. "Well I can't do this, but I can do this."

And I too have stated why I want Ursan balanced, see my above post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

It does require skill, you can die with UB, saying otherwise only proves how little you know about the subject. Does it require less skill than other builds? Sure.

The bolded part is what matters. Of course it isn't entirely "skilless," but compared to every other build out there the effort is minimal. I'll go over the biggest points in the list again: You don't have to worry about attributes, you don't have to worry about setting up skills, and you don't have to worry about finding a balanced team build because the only professions you need are Bear and Monk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

Where on the Guild Wars site does it say that? Where does a Guild Wars representative say that?

Check the box, inside flap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

It only affects the global economy in a slight manner and not in a way that you portray it. And why should only a few lucky people with the right class be able to benefit from these elite areas instead of all classes anyway?

"Why should only accounts with GWEN be able to have such a good skill instead of all accounts?"

Abedeus · Feb 15, 2008, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

You "think" you posted a screen "somewhere", kinda vague don't you think? I hope you don't mind I don't believe your compelling evidence but even if it is true one single event doesn't prove anything.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0247893&page=4
Here you go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

You're forgetting that's just 2/8 of the entire group I could bring more 600hps if I wanted to or other support characters since 2 Ursans won't clear anything either.

Yeah, try to farm in the Forest of Wailing Lord without problems like... Oh, I don't know. Spirits that make maintaining enchantments and casting them harder? Or try to clear with 600/smite the Beach, with Rend Enchantments every few seconds, hexes giving -10 degeneration, massive damage through Grenth's Balance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

Where on the Guild Wars site does it say that? Where does a Guild Wars representative say that?

I think that was the thing (not mentioning no payments and the instanced PvE) that made GW so special. Oh, and it's also at the back of my Guild Wars: Prophecies box. Dunno how it's in English (I have the polish/czech/slovak box), but it's something like ,,You'll prove your worth on the battlefield, because it's your skill, not time spend on game, will determine about your fate''. Please, someone with english box fix that, if I translated it wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

It does require skill, you can die with UB, saying otherwise only proves how little you know about the subject. Does it require less skill than other builds? Sure.

Wow. Some people DIE with UB? Incredible. Give them the biggest failure reward.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

Funny you should mention that I vanquished 'Old Ascalon' as a W/Mo (as you might have seen on my picture it's my primairy character) with 3 henchmen (not even heroes since I didn't have any back then) it was hard but it did do it, believe me or not.

I dare to say you wasted twice as much time as someone with players/heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

GW:EN offers much more than just 1 skill therefor your "theory" is wrong.

Oh, right. Dungeons to clear with ursan and a plot for 8 hours. But let's not forget, this isn't a thread about the failure, EotN.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

It only affects the global economy in a slight manner and not in a way that you portray it. And why should only a few lucky people with the right class be able to benefit from these elite areas instead of all classes anyway?

Again, almost every skill can be replaced with other skill. Maybe not from you, but a teammate can use that skill. So a Mesmer can replace a nuker, a Ritualist or Necro can replace a Monk, Ranger can replace a Warrior, Necro or Ritualist. Paragon can replace a Warrior or Monk, assassin can replace a Ranger or Warrior. Dervish can replace a tank (elementalist), a Warrior, Assassin or a nuker (crappy, but it CAN). Something else?

V Thanks for reply. Those cheap bastards cut off a whole sentense from the box to save space...

Bryant Again · Feb 15, 2008, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

I think that was the thing (not mentioning no payments and the instanced PvE) that made GW so special. Oh, and it's also at the back of my Guild Wars: Prophecies box. Dunno how it's in English (I have the polish/czech/slovak box), but it's something like ,,You'll prove your worth on the battlefield, because it's your skill, not time spend on game, will determine about your fate''. Please, someone with english box fix that, if I translated it wrong.

"You'll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate. Whether battling horrific monsters or competing at the highest levels of tournament player, it will always be your skill that earns you victory or defeat."

zwei2stein · Feb 15, 2008, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

"You'll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate. Whether battling horrific monsters or competing at the highest levels of tournament player, it will always be your skill that earns you victory or defeat."

I would love to play that game.

KingKryton · Feb 15, 2008, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Nobody was forced to use Obsi Flesh. That's just mentality of PuG's that ,,tank zomg wtf cool I can tank 50 monsters and waste an hour''. There were DB/MS Assassins or DS/SY Warrior.

Obsi could be a warrior, an elementalist, a dervish, a ranger, paragons can turn people into tanks with Imbagon build. Ursan is ,,all classes'', but only one true class IRL ,,GRINDER''.

And I don't want to use Ursan. I want to go to PuGs. I can't, as searching for a non-ursan team would take at least 5-6 hours.

I say I want to use nuker, not ursan. What's happening? They kick me. And another group kicks, another, another. I agree to play Ursan and I'm bored for next hour-two.

Oh, and aren't you forgetting about past nerfs?
,,Let people use unnerfed EoE, if they are having fun, let them use it!!''
,,If people are having fun with Signet of Ghostly Might, let them use it!''
,,Some people like playing Obsidian Flesh with Stoneflesh at 21 seconds, don't nerf it and let them play!''
,,Me and my friends like 600 unnerfed, make it come back!''

You are incredibly, incredibly selfish. Everything is good, as long as it makes you pass game incredibly fast and with nothing to gain except for gold. No experience, no skill.

wow your full of it.

im in toa most of the time and usually theres only 1-2 ursans groups sometimes none while there always 2-3 other "normaL' groups setting up whether its be trappers, duo runners or larger groups.

DivineEnvoy · Feb 15, 2008, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimEye

Ok, so we have all the arguments what's "wrong" with Ursan. So what do we do about it to make things "right"?

Guys, ladies, offer some solutions and not more arguments, for the arguments are just going in circles. I counter you, you counter me, I counter back, and we are back in square one. The argument whats "wrong" had been said, now lets see how we can make it "right".

For all those arguments, very few really offered a concrete, workable solution.

If your solution is completely taking ursan out of the game, then the vaunted claim of "intelligence and creative" would not aptly describe you. That is like swatting a mosquito with a hydrgen bomb, an easy solution but not exactly intelligent and creative.

If your solution is making Ursan "unusable", not exactly creative but a lazy man's way of solving things.

What Im really interested, is the middle ground, where "Ursan" be relegated to an "alternative" skill or meta-build and not die the slow death of nerfing.

Of course, that is, if ANET is still open and considering changing Ursan in any way. If not, all suggestion of solution is meaningless, and we would be dancing in circles all through the months until GW2 comes out. And its a long and tiring dance, and we can just continue arguing ourselves to exhaustion.

My take.

When comes to demanding Anet to make a change to a certain part in the game, it is believed that you'd only have to do one thing: rant on fansite forums. However, the truth is, many people have overlooked to what logics Anet has used to make their decisions. And so far, through various observations, I managed to isolate the following factors:

1. How many people are affected by this part of the game, or perhaps, how many people are whining about this? In saying this, I have to point out there's a significant difference between many people complaining and a few people complaining many times.
2. What sort of profits can Anet make from this change? With this said, we need to consider what Anet intends to do with the remaining days of Guild Wars.
3. How strongly does Anet feel about keeping the current state of the game? In this case, we need to consider how far has Anet taken with this. For example, Skill Packs are for sale now, and despite the fact many people have complained how it made unlocking skills meaningless, Anet will not remove them.

Let us first consider the intention Anet has left for Guild Wars. It is rather straight-forward: Anet wants to keep players playing until the release of Guild Wars 2. Let's assume Domain of Anguish will be 5% extra time spent into playing the game. If players are able to play in Domain of Anguish, these players will be able to spend 5% longer in Guild Wars. And in contrast, if players are unable to play in Domain of Anguish, these players will not be able to spend 5% longer in Guild Wars. Relevantly, Ursan just allows everyone to play Domain of Anguish, despite all the possible reasons to prevent them not to.

Now we look at what people have been saying about Ursan all these time: everyone runs Ursan, and because of that, everyone needs to buy Guild Wars: Eye of the North. I'm not sure if this is true, but from this logic, Anet is going to make more profits, since now people are forced to buy the expansion for Ursan. Relevantly, any requests of reducing the efficiency of Ursan seems to reduce the profits Anet will make. Of course, people can always argue how they won't purchase Guild Wars 2 or future releases of Anet because of this, but are these people a majority or minority in the community? It's all democratic here, and they only care about the majority. So I guess people can point out how Ursan is killing the game, but in my own opinion, Guild Wars is already dead when Guild Wars 2 was announced. Consequently, I find people's suggestions to reduce Ursan's efficiency to be no more than a request to reduce Anet's profits, and in reality, will Anet really accept this request?

Of course, these are not the only factors we have to evaluate; we need to consider how much work Anet has to put in to make this possible. I would like to point out changing Ursan requires a duration of testing of different methods as well as the thoughts that are needed to make it work. Let us recall the Wintersday event where the regular four hats were reduced to two, and as well as the same hat of being used in the Canthan New Year. Knowing how much reduction of work has been made from here and there, we need to know how the possibility of Anet making this change isn't high.

Another perspective we need to consider is that when Anet makes a final decision to what a certain part of the game will be, there's nothing that can be said to change it. Let us first consider the Skill Packs; I'd say that many people have been unlocking their skills through factions or PvE, and thus quite a lot of time has been spent to reach the status of UAX. Now with a small fee, anyone can overcome all these time spent into the game. Of course, if anyone of us may recall, real life money should not have impacts to the game itself, but as we can see, Skill Packs may have violated that rule. Relevantly, the person who suggested this later suggested for Anet to sell ingame gold, and of course, I flamed him to death for both cases on the other forum. My point is, some additions can be bad or even considered to be trash to the game, but if Anet puts its foot down, I have yet to see anything can be changed from that point.

I guess people may say how the box promised them of the skill over time principle to the game. In all honesty, that's still true, but it only resides within PvP, and as we can recall, they take PvP very seriously. I guess that's their moral line. With this said, I'm not saying that such promise has been broken for the players in PvE, but throughout the course of the two years, the majority wanted to do more in the game than just repeating the same tasks or making new characters, and in reality, Ursan has opened more doors for those people. Consequently, the related principle is more or less modified to satisfy the greater number of the population in PvE.

The perspective I have with these threads is just a bunch of people ranting about how Ursan is a bad impact to the game, and most these reasons were founded from a selfish intention. In reality, these rants are not productive at all, and they will only tell Anet the following: more people are forced to buy Guild Wars: Eye of the North and play longer than they had to from grinding, farming titles, and releated tasks. From a few factors I have previously stated, Anet intended to have these with the game. My opinion is that, from the logics Anet used to make changes to the game, Ursan will not be changed. Relevantly, I have yet to see any solutions that are mandatory and relevant to the logics Anet use.

Bryant Again · Feb 15, 2008, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Let us first consider the intention Anet has left for Guild Wars. It is rather straight-forward: Anet wants to keep players playing until the release of Guild Wars 2.

If ANet wanted people hooked through GW2, why create a skill that strolls through content with the least amount of effort at a relatively quick pace???

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

I'm not sure if this is true, but from this logic, Anet is going to make more profits, since now people are forced to buy the expansion for Ursan.

They won't make any money off of it. A normal player coming to DoA, excited about finally being able to see it, will be pretty turned off by the fact that he's turned down by or unable to join an Ursan group because he doesn't have one skill. Now a more dedicated player probably would want to buy GW:EN, but we're referring to the average consumer here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Let us recall the Wintersday event where the regular four hats were reduced to two, and as well as the same hat of being used in the Canthan New Year. Knowing how much reduction of work has been made from here and there, we need to know how the possibility of Anet making this change isn't high.

Art and graphics are entirely different from skill balances. Different departments, different people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

My point is, some additions can be bad or even considered to be trash to the game, but if Anet puts its foot down, I have yet to see anything can be changed from that point.

Skill packs are, if anything, awesome for the game. It truly makes the game "skill>time." Although I believe you shouldn't have to pay for it in the first place, it's now an incredibly affordable purchase thanks to the decreasing prices of the campaigns.

Also note that this is an online game. Nothing is final.

Final note on the box: Remember that it said "...Whether battling horrific monsters or competing at the highest levels of tournament play, it will always be your skill that earns you victory or defeat." So it was intended to be the most vital and reoccurring theme in the whole game, unless it referred to fighting minions in GvG (hehe.)

bel unbreakable · Feb 15, 2008, 11:30 PM // 23:30

how can any one say on one hand skill packs are awsome then moan about the lack of skill in the game its just stupid when ever was it bad to have to go cap the skills you wanted but i guess wiki and the gw store teach you all you need no fun in that at all

Tyla · Feb 15, 2008, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Because people don't want to farm Balthazar Faction to become UAX so they can get in the game fast?
Not everyone plays PvE - and if you don't have the right skills for a build in certain PvP, you probably won't be doing it.

Tyla · Feb 15, 2008, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

Where on the Guild Wars site does it say that? Where does a Guild Wars representative say that?

Read the back of the Guild Wars Prophecies casing.

"Prove your worth in a world where SKILL decides VICTORY"

Quote:

It does require skill, you can die with UB, saying otherwise only proves how little you know about the subject. Does it require less skill than other builds? Sure.

Nope, dying with UB doesn't mean 1-2-3 buttonmashing is skill.
That means you're monks failed.

Quote:

Funny you should mention that I vanquished 'Old Ascalon' as a W/Mo (as you might have seen on my picture it's my primairy character) with 3 henchmen (not even heroes since I didn't have any back then) it was hard but it did do it, believe me or not.

It's PvE.

Quote:

GW:EN offers much more than just 1 skill therefor your "theory" is wrong.

It seems that most PuGs only GET GW:EN for Ursan...

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It only affects the global economy in a slight manner and not in a way that you portray it. And why should only a few lucky people with the right class be able to benefit from these elite areas instead of all classes anyway?

Easy - It's called a guild.

Fried Tech · Feb 19, 2008, 01:37 PM // 13:37

reading this thread is like watching the special olympics.

Bryant Again · Feb 19, 2008, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fried Tech

reading this thread is like watching the special olympics.

If you don't like it, why bump it?

zwei2stein · Feb 19, 2008, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If you don't like it, why bump it?

Because just like "special" person watching olympics wants to join sportsmen, he longs to join this discussion.

Fried Tech · Feb 19, 2008, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If you don't like it, why bump it?

for the same reason the average joe would watch, i guess. to make me feel better about myself. its a skill, in a game, and i find this whole argument comical.

NOTE: they can do whatever they want to ursan now. i'm done with my HM dungeons and guardian. Ursan didn't make it possible, just easier.

EDIT: meant to quote the stein

Bryant Again · Feb 19, 2008, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fried Tech

its a skill, in a game, and i find this whole argument comical.

And this has been a discussion on why we think the skill is a poor and harmful addition to the game.

Fried Tech · Feb 19, 2008, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

And this has been a discussion on why we think the skill is a poor and harmful addition to the game.

i realize that but the lengths that this has been taken to seem...... a bit far. Thats just my 2 cents.